Model extraction bad? - Guild Wars Forums

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

This is a hypothetical question, as I haven't done anything yet. Let's say I wanted to make a papercraft model of something from GW. I would have to extract the model from the game itself and "unfold it" then print it out and fold it again. I have found a program that does this. It isn't a model viewer; you simply fire up this program, tell it to launch GW and then hit a key to capture the model on the screen.

Now, I believe this is completely harmless, but I'm not 100% certain. It isn't changing anything in the game/code itself and isn't really reverse engineering. I'm more worried about copyrights and the fact that I have to launch GW through a

Third Party Program. Would this get my account banned? Or would this be something deemed acceptable?

Let me know if this needs anymore clarification.
Thanks.

Mournblade · Jun 05, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I would write ANet support and ask. It sounds perfectly harmless, but ANet doesn't make much room for wrong and right in their terms of use.

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

That's kind of what I figured. Thanks for the response.

Whispering Siren · Jun 05, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I would look around online and verify that the program you found is actually reputable. It could easily disguise itself as something useful and actually be a keylogger.

Etta · Jun 05, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Well seeing that you are going to be using something from GW, all of which belong to Anet, not to mention a 3rd party software in the background. You better ask their permission first before you do anything. Otherwise who know what might happen.

ichigo_panty · Jun 05, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Beware of copyright infringement. Like ^ said, ask anet for their permission before you take their properties.

You do not want to see lawyer's letter in your mailbox the next day you copied their model.

But if you are not using the materials for any monetary purposes, i guess you are good. Better to ask though.

How does the program work? Must it be run on guild wars? Or is it an external software that capture the screen like game cam? If it works like game cam, i guess it is okay. If it must be run on guild war platform, i suggest that you abort this plan of your.

Dark Angle · Jun 05, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10155511
be aware!!! form 3rd party programs
~DA

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichigo_panty

Beware of copyright infringement. Like ^ said, ask anet for their permission before you take their properties.

You do not want to see lawyer's letter in your mailbox the next day you copied their model.

But if you are not using the materials for any monetary purposes, i guess you are good. Better to ask though.

How does the program work? Must it be run on guild wars? Or is it an external software that capture the screen like game cam? If it works like game cam, i guess it is okay. If it must be run on guild war platform, i suggest that you abort this plan of your.

It does capture the screen like the game cam. I am awaiting a reply from anet at the moment. Kinda interested to see how this turns out.

Tachyon · Jun 05, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm slightly baffled as to how a program can somehow extract a 3D model with only a 2D screenshot.

...and anyway to grab a 3D mesh model from within a games coding you'd be in breach of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

3. LICENSE TO USE

Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Campaigns and Additional Features which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You should keep your access key in a safe place and not share it with anyone else. The access key can be used only once. Title to the Software, and all rights with respect to the Software and Service not specifically granted under this Agreement, including without limitation all rights of reproduction, modification, distribution, display, disassembly and decompilation and all copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights and interests are reserved to NC Interactive.

HawkofStorms · Jun 05, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Yeah, getting 3d models from a screeshot sounds dubious. Of course, since the model is stored on a.nets server, there is no way to get them legitamately from the file.

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Azagoth- I read the EULA excerpt you posted, but I'm still not sure if it applies to this as it really isn't reverse engineering or source code deriving. It may however be decompiling. I'm still waiting on the final word from anet, but I've been redirected a few times

For everyone else- Thanks for your thoughts and if anything else comes up, please post. If Anet okays this, I will be releasing anything I create to the community so you can enjoy your favorite GW characters as papermodels.

dr_ishmael · Jun 05, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

reverse engineer –verb (used with object)
to study or analyze (a device, as a microchip for computers) in order to learn details of design, construction, and operation, perhaps to produce a copy or an improved version.

You say that the program "unfolds" the model from within the game. In other words, the program analyzes the model to learn the details of its construction, in order to produce a (papercraft) copy of it. That is most definitely reverse engineering.

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr_ishmael

You say that the program "unfolds" the model from within the game. In other words, the program analyzes the model to learn the details of its construction, in order to produce a (papercraft) copy of it. That is most definitely reverse engineering.

It doesn't unfold the model from within the game. It simply collects a series of pictures of the textured polygons as a whole.

Though the definition you posted defines reverse engineering as

"to study or analyze (a device, as a microchip for computers) in order to learn details of design, construction, and operation, perhaps to produce a copy or an improved version."

Bolded are the parts that concern me. Still waiting on any information from Anet though.

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Here's the official word from Anet:

"Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Guild Wars Support Team.

While this is not technically against the User Agreement we do not support or condone using any third party program in connection with Guild Wars. Also keep in mind that you may not make any profit from the use of Guild Wars character models in any form or fashion. We appreciate your understanding.

Regards,

The Guild Wars Support Team"

So, it looks like I won't get banned if I do it as long as the program doesn't mess with GW and I don't charge for the models.

lakatz · Jun 05, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Are you talking about OGLE? Or is there a program that can extract from games with DirectX rendering?

DigiDee · Jun 05, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Are you talking about OGLE? Or is there a program that can extract from games with DirectX rendering?

A program that can extract from games with DirectX rendering and import the models directly into 3DS max. Once in 3DS max, I'll delete all unnecessary polys and import them into a papercraft designer program.

ichigo_panty · Jun 06, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Once you are done, take a photo and post it.

Would love to see the finished products.

MirkoTeran · Jun 06, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Like most programs like this(GLInterceptor, OGLE,..) it probably either intercepts program-to-renderingAPI calls or get info from renderingAPI itself. This is usually uses for debugging and optimizing graphical engines. And since this doesn't touch the game or it's memory itself I doubt it could be illegal (but can usually be detected).
But what you do with that data after that is other thing. I kind of doubt you'll be selling papercraft models

Etta · Jun 06, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigiDee

official word from Anet:

While this is not technically against the User Agreement we do not support or condone using any third party program in connection with Guild Wars. Also keep in mind that you may not make any profit from the use of Guild Wars character models in any form or fashion. We appreciate your understanding.

Regards,

The Guild Wars Support Team"

Well, they didn't say no, you can't do it or yes, go ahead and do it. As long as you're not makng money out of it you should be ok, keep that email tho, just in case.

DigiDee · Jun 06, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Yeah, I'm keeping the email handy. Looks like this is still going to be quite a bit of work though. All the character models are around 2,100 polygons... and each polygon counts as a piece. I'm going to see if I can't optimize them for a papercraft medium though.

Jun 05, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20	#1
DigiDee Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Delusional Supremacy {DS} Profession: Mo/D	Model extraction bad? This is a hypothetical question, as I haven't done anything yet. Let's say I wanted to make a papercraft model of something from GW. I would have to extract the model from the game itself and "unfold it" then print it out and fold it again. I have found a program that does this. It isn't a model viewer; you simply fire up this program, tell it to launch GW and then hit a key to capture the model on the screen. Now, I believe this is completely harmless, but I'm not 100% certain. It isn't changing anything in the game/code itself and isn't really reverse engineering. I'm more worried about copyrights and the fact that I have to launch GW through a Third Party Program. Would this get my account banned? Or would this be something deemed acceptable? Let me know if this needs anymore clarification. Thanks.

Jun 05, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33	#2
Mournblade Furnace Stoker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Guild: Dawn Treaders [DAWN] Profession: W/Mo	I would write ANet support and ask. It sounds perfectly harmless, but ANet doesn't make much room for wrong and right in their terms of use.

Jun 05, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34	#3
DigiDee Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Delusional Supremacy {DS} Profession: Mo/D	That's kind of what I figured. Thanks for the response.

Jun 05, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29	#4
Whispering Siren Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland	I would look around online and verify that the program you found is actually reputable. It could easily disguise itself as something useful and actually be a keylogger.

Jun 05, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54	#5
Etta Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mancland, British Empire	Well seeing that you are going to be using something from GW, all of which belong to Anet, not to mention a 3rd party software in the background. You better ask their permission first before you do anything. Otherwise who know what might happen.

Jun 05, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11	#6
ichigo_panty Krytan Explorer Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Exiled And Forsaken[EnF]	Beware of copyright infringement. Like ^ said, ask anet for their permission before you take their properties. You do not want to see lawyer's letter in your mailbox the next day you copied their model. But if you are not using the materials for any monetary purposes, i guess you are good. Better to ask though. How does the program work? Must it be run on guild wars? Or is it an external software that capture the screen like game cam? If it works like game cam, i guess it is okay. If it must be run on guild war platform, i suggest that you abort this plan of your.

Jun 05, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25	#7
Dark Angle Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005	http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10155511 be aware!!! form 3rd party programs ~DA

Jun 05, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51	#10
HawkofStorms Hall Hero Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: E/	Yeah, getting 3d models from a screeshot sounds dubious. Of course, since the model is stored on a.nets server, there is no way to get them legitamately from the file.

Jun 05, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58	#11
DigiDee Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Delusional Supremacy {DS} Profession: Mo/D	Azagoth- I read the EULA excerpt you posted, but I'm still not sure if it applies to this as it really isn't reverse engineering or source code deriving. It may however be decompiling. I'm still waiting on the final word from anet, but I've been redirected a few times For everyone else- Thanks for your thoughts and if anything else comes up, please post. If Anet okays this, I will be releasing anything I create to the community so you can enjoy your favorite GW characters as papermodels.

Jun 05, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12	#14
DigiDee Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Delusional Supremacy {DS} Profession: Mo/D	Here's the official word from Anet: "Hello, Thank you for contacting the Guild Wars Support Team. While this is not technically against the User Agreement we do not support or condone using any third party program in connection with Guild Wars. Also keep in mind that you may not make any profit from the use of Guild Wars character models in any form or fashion. We appreciate your understanding. Regards, The Guild Wars Support Team" So, it looks like I won't get banned if I do it as long as the program doesn't mess with GW and I don't charge for the models.

Jun 05, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14	#15
lakatz Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2006	Are you talking about OGLE? Or is there a program that can extract from games with DirectX rendering?

Jun 06, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32	#17
ichigo_panty Krytan Explorer Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Exiled And Forsaken[EnF]	Once you are done, take a photo and post it. Would love to see the finished products.

Jun 06, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43	#18
MirkoTeran Forge Runner Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Slovenia Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS] Profession: Mo/	Like most programs like this(GLInterceptor, OGLE,..) it probably either intercepts program-to-renderingAPI calls or get info from renderingAPI itself. This is usually uses for debugging and optimizing graphical engines. And since this doesn't touch the game or it's memory itself I doubt it could be illegal (but can usually be detected). But what you do with that data after that is other thing. I kind of doubt you'll be selling papercraft models

Jun 06, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09	#20
DigiDee Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Delusional Supremacy {DS} Profession: Mo/D	Yeah, I'm keeping the email handy. Looks like this is still going to be quite a bit of work though. All the character models are around 2,100 polygons... and each polygon counts as a piece. I'm going to see if I can't optimize them for a papercraft medium though.